[RC] worthwhile site FYI -very large number of political links of all kinds
Avesland at aol.com
Avesland at aol.com
Mon Sep 11 15:19:28 EDT 2006
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Why Democrats Lose Independent Voters
by Joe Gandelman
We got an email today and will not run the person's name. But if you read
this site regularly, you know that we quote all sides, have raised a series of
questions, and do take strong stands.
This reader — in a new twist — suggests I'm being a ventriloquist for
George Bush. (Sorry, our cast of characters is full and we only use life-like
looking dummies in _our show._ (http://www.familyentertainer.com/) )
I also never knew that anyone who has supported the war needs to have war
decorations to do so. We need to contact historians to tell them that during
World War I and World War II, Americans were hypocrites because even though
those were widely acknowledged to be good causes, Americans who supported those
wars supported them out of ignorance. You need a Purple Heart to make a
decision on it.
First, here is my response. I won't do this with other emails — just delete
them. But, as an independent voter, I turn off when someone goes into attack
mode. If it was near election day and a few folks like this started out their
argument to me this way I would probably not be inclined to vote for
whomever they are arguing for.
NOTE TO THE LEFT AND RIGHT: You LOSE VOTES when you go attack people who
don't agree-100 percent with you. I would think your goal is to persuade through
force of argument.
DEMOCRATS: Don't send this guy out during the campaign. Or was this REALLY
written by a Republican operative pretending to be a Democrat? It's hard to
believe anything that starts out so resembling a Saturday Night Live parody of
someone on the far left out to alienate an independent voter is real. Or that
anything that starts out immediately with such an insult could be anything
but something calculated to turn me off.
This email is confirmation of _this post_
(http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137391420.shtml) we ran earlier about the Democratic Party's problem
with people on the far left who basically define others who don't agree with
them as "the enemy" — just as equally as people on the right..
Does this email have lots of merit? Perhaps. But I stopped after the first
paragraph and am putting it on the website — one time only in a case like this
— so others can discuss its views.
I won't do this with other similar emails; I will just delete them. But I'll
run this one as kind of a Guest Voice...except it will have my reply to his
email at the beginning and my final thoughts at the end.
MY REPLY:
This is the kind of attack email that loses me after the first sentence. See
ya. If you want to discuss ideas without attacks stick them on my blog. I
have also been critical of the way the war is conducted. I need to save this as
an email from the left accusing me of being a right winger during 4 weeks
when I and this blog have been attacked on various sites as being too far left.
I really don't read emails that start out attacking me. You're just as bad
as the people attacking Murtha's patriotism. Weak patriot?
Sorry. My time is really limited and when I see that kind of thing I delete
it as I will future emails. "Weak patriot" means delete immediately. Also,
sorry that I didn't get the list of requirements for the posts I write to be
allowed to write according to your post. You may have excellent points but you
lost me by your attack. In fact, you immediately have alienated me about any
position you espouse.
And - no joke — I won't read beyond the attack (and will delete and not
answer any more emails from someone since this kind of tactic backfires on me).
But I will allow him to be a guest post by posting his email in full — without
his name since the point is not to embarrass him...but to make a POINT about
the fact that civil discussion on issues can be done without personally
attacking someone.
HIS EMAIL TO ME
Joe
Where are your war decorations? Where are Geroge W. (AWOL) Bush's war
decorations? Where is the proof he fulfilled his military obligations? Are you a
ventriloquist for George Walker (AWOL) Bush? And what about Richared Bruce
(Five Deferment) Cheney? Where are his military awards? Just as you Joe, AWOL
Bush and Five Deferment Cheney are not qualified to lead this nation into war.
You are an extremely weak patriot and have no idea what you are talking
about. Not once did you mention the Constitution of the United States of America.
What a shame! The basis for all patriotism is the Constitution.
Article One of the Constitution of the United States of America plainly
states that Congress has the sole authority to declare war. NOT THE PRESIDENT.
George Walker (AWOL) Bush and Richard Bruce (Five Deferment) Cheney both have
commited perdify. Both of these men run the executive branch with a
contumacious attitude. Why are you weak journalists letting them get by with that?
Article Two of the Constitution of the United States of America empatically
states the fact the president must "take Care the Laws be faithfully
executed." The President never has the authority to bypass the law. The President
never has the authority to bypass the law even in war. Yet the weak,
unpatriotic journalists like yourself apparently never bother with reading the
Constitution of the United States of America, nor even the Declaration of
Independence. What a shame!
If you had read those documents, you could not and would not support an
illegal and unconstitutional war. You would be a patriot and support those that
have spent actual time in combat. You would realize the reason we declared
our independence was because King George was violating laws very much the same
way as George Walker (AWOL) Bush. You would call for the impeachment,
conviction and charges be applied to both George Walker (AWOL) Bush and Richard
Bruce (Five Deferment) Cheney for national and international war crimes. You
would call for the impeachment of both men because instead of making this nation
safer ~ murders, medical malpractice and corporate corruption are occuring
here in this nation day and night ~ and has created a terrorist haven in the
middle east that did not exist before George Walker (AWOL) Bush invaded Iraq.
Many voters will see through Iraq and will vote to change out Congress
because too few members dare to take a stand based on the Constitution.
(Congressman Dr. Ron Paul, R-TX is one such individual and did not vote to support the
military authorization based on what the Constitution stated along with West
Virginia Senator Robert C. Byrd). Many people will continue the downward
spiral of support of the illegal war and will question why their respective
representative continues to support spending well a billion dollars a week for
something that is not doing this nation any good.
Demanding accoutability from the leadership of this nation is what has made
this nation strong; not supporting ill-fated wars or nefariously attempting
to defame individuals. The signers of the Declaration of Independence put
their life on the line because they knew if they failed they would have been put
to death becaus of what they were saying about the King of England. The true
patriots are calling for accountibility of our executive branch, withdrawal
of an illegal war and examination of what it is that the nation's founding
documents say. This nation has be tremendously weakened by the so called war on
terror ~ this nation will destroy itself from within as the abuse of power
demonstrated by George Walker (AWOL) Bush and Richard Bruce (Five Deferment)
Cheney especially with regards of intentionally violating FISA laws, Geneva
Conventions and boldly waving the meaningless signing statements ~ it does not
need terrorist to help it accomplish that task.
ONE MORE THOUGHT: Here we ran several posts about John Murtha's patriotism
being under attack and zillions of posts defending totally free debate of the
war in the political realm. This site has run many posts rejecting the
tactic used by the administration suggesting that not supporting the war in Iraq
or questioning it makes critics in effect enablers of terrorists. And I get an
email saying I'm a "weak patriot."
What does it mean? It means the far left and far right have become mirror
images of themselves.
They need to go back to their books and see what a patriot is. Someone can
be a patriot and not be a lockstep supporter of YOUR complete agenda or evey
nuance of YOUR ideas. There are good number of us who will not listen to you —
and why should we? — if you attack OUR patriotism because we are may not
agree with every single point you espouse, but could share some of them. And
some of us don't want to be affiliated with either side. We don't NEED to
declare our patriotism to you or ANYONE ELSE. And we do vote in every election.
ADVICE TO DEMOCRATS: If this is how you make your case in 2006, by
questioning the patriotism of Americans who don't agree with every stance of yours
and every gradation of it, you won't have a chance of winning Congress or the
Presidency. For instance, those who read this site know the questions we've
raised in posts about the war. You can have supported the entry into Iraq and
NOT favor an immediate withdrawal and still want to see some kind of actual
exit strategy. You can have supported the war and be outraged over things that
were said to the American public that turned out not to be true. But that
emailer wasn't interested in that — just attacking someone who didn't agree.
ADVICE TO REPUBLICANS: Hire him immediately to go out and campaign for
Democrats. It's true. I did not read his whole email, nor will I. He lost me at
the start.
UPDATE: He replies to my email:
Sorry but I cannot and will not espouse attacks on true Patriotic Veterans.
I do not have the time for weak patriots. Again, I am sorry but I will stand
for true and strong Patriots every day.
My reply (and all future emails from him will be deleted):
And I don't have time on my blog or emails for people who name call. Just
don't complain when conservatives wrongly call YOU unpatriotic. Just look in
the mirror. And since I don't have time, for people who practice McCarthyism of
the left, I'll delete all of your future emails. Go through Center Voices on
my blog and email all of those people who might not totally agree with you
and accuse them of being "weak patriots." Oh. Happy Martin Luther King Jr.
Day (read about his dream).
Honestly, is he someone from the RNC pretending to be a Democrat to
discredit them? Or is this what's REALLY out there?
_All Related Posts (on one page)_
(http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/chain_1132683705.shtml) | Some Related Posts:
1. _Rep. Jean Schmidt's Cake Controversy_
(http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1140549802.shtml)
2. Why Democrats Lose Independent Voters
3. _Why Democratic Victory May Not Be Easy_
(http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137391420.shtml) ...
4. _Jean Schmidt's Marine Refutes Coward Comment_
(http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1132683705.shtml)
5. _Rep. Jean Schmidt of Ohio 2 May Be "Ethics-Challenged"_
(http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1132677485.shtml)
6. _Judging John Murtha_
(http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1132588494.shtml)
Posted on January 16, 2006 | _Permalink_
(http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml) | _5 Trackbacks_
(http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.trackbacks.shtml)
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14445) )
Mike Heinz (_mail_ (mailto:porkchop_d_clown at mac dot com) ):
Sing it, brother!
I am so tired of being told it's my fault that I don't vote Democratic,
because I'm too stupid to see the self evident truth of their secular faith.
I particularly enjoy being called a neo-con stooge despite not having ever
ever voted for Bush.
Everytime I find my self sliding to the left, their shrill rage at anyone
who doesn't toe the party line pushes me right back out again.
1.16.2006 10:53am
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14446) )
Charles Jordan (_mail_ (mailto:trashman1936 at yahoo.com) ):
But Mike, don't the Right do the exact same thing? -- telling Democrats they
are too stupid to see the self evident truth of Christianity. Some go so far
as to tell Democrats they aren't Christians. Every time religion is a topic
on cspan's washington Journal, one nut after another calls in on both lines.
Its pathetic. You can't have an intellegent conversation with people on the
far right or the far left. They know all the answers to all the questions and
God help you if you disagree with them. Of course the opinion of the 24 hour
news people is if it doesn't stir up emotions its not worth showing. but here
on this blog we know better which is why the email should have been deleted
and forgotten
1.16.2006 11:18am
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14447) )
Mr. Moderate:
You know what's funny. He made some good points about constitutional
principles and other things in the middle of the e-mail. If he would have just
dropped the invective and political posturing it wouldn't be half bad. The guy
sounds just like the GOP ideologues that he is so mad at. I find that especially
ironic.
For some reason though, when a Republican does this it turns away less
independants than when a Democrat does. I wonder why that is? (I'm not being
sarcastic with that question).
1.16.2006 11:28am
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14448) )
DougJ (_mail_ (mailto:gooppatriot50 at gmail.com) ):
I am so tired of being told it's my fault that I don't vote Democratic,
because I'm too stupid to see the self evident truth of their secular faith.
Their secularism is completely dogmatic. They want to destroy religion and
capitalism and replace it with a Godless Marxist state. That's what underlies
their yammering about separation of Church and state: the desire to drive
Christ from the public square.
Well, it ain't happening.
1.16.2006 11:42am
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14451) )
Elrod (_mail_ (mailto:a-astor at northwestern.edu) ):
Actually, the best solution for the Democratic Party is to hire DougJ to
campaign for the Republicans. He is like my father-in-law. So loony right wing
that he convinces everyone around him to become a liberal. Preach on DougJ!
1.16.2006 12:03pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14453) )
Mike Heinz (_mail_ (mailto:porkchop_d_clown at mac dot com) ):
But Mike, don't the Right do the exact same thing? -- telling Democrats they
are too stupid to see the self evident truth of Christianity.
LoL. Nice of you to stick your foot in it, Charles.
1. Refusing to support the democrats is not the same thing as supporting the
republicans. I don't support the republicans.
2. I am, however, a Christian.
So, two strikes against you right off the bat - both for ignoring what I
wrote and believing that Christians cannot be liberals. I suggest you remind
your self what Dr. MLK's degree was actually in.
1.16.2006 12:29pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14454) )
Charles Jordan (_mail_ (mailto:trashman1936 at yahoo.com) ):
If a man got Christ in is his home, in his marriage and in his life. He got
all he need. It's because so many men today don't have these things in their
home that we have so many problems outside the home. It don't matter what's
on the public square because the problem not in the square, its in the homes.
We just don't want to admit it. Now having these problems we want to blame
somebody. so blame the secularist. The truth is we got to blame ourselves
because these problems started in homes. Now our young girls got tatooes on their
backsides, thongs, something they call friends with benefits (yes I watch
MTV) and all kinds of foolishness. My granddaughter bought some thongs and my
son took them things and put them in the trash. I raised him had to be hard on
him sometimes and now thank God he raise his kids right. Not everybody can
say that. Some treat their kids like they are friends. give them everything.
car money the kids don't work for nothing. it just handed to them. What kind a
man you think those kids will be: weak and spoiled. you think praying in
school going to fix that? it won't. We way passed just praying.
1.16.2006 12:41pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14455) )
Mike Heinz (_mail_ (mailto:porkchop_d_clown at mac dot com) ):
WTF?
Does that rant have any relevance to the topic under discussion, or are you
just trying to distract from your previous faux pas?
Again I remind you - given the number of Democratic leaders who have the
word "Reverend" in front of their name, why do you commit the stupidity of
assuming Christianity is a right wing religion? Or that religion is a
right-wing-only phenomenon?
1.16.2006 12:45pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14456) )
Ryan:
First, this is exactly why I, as I'm sure many of us here, are just as
turned off by the far left as by the far right. As was already mentioned, there
were a couple of very valid arguments raised in that e-mail but they were
overwhelmed by the seemingly pure, venemous hate spewing from the e-mail.
It's truly amazing how similar the far left and the far right really are.
Different words, different talking points, but the underlying blind hatred is
identical.
Second, Mike, did I miss something? I don't see where anyone is saying that
Christianity is a right wing religion or that religion is a right-wing-only
phenomenon, I only see a statement that the right attempts to portray things
that way. Maybe I'm reading the original post by Charles differently than you
are.
Third, someone please tell me I'm not the only one who was reading that
e-mail and thinking that this has to be the left wing version of DougJ. How
appropriate that DougJ shows up here to remind us of that fact.
1.16.2006 1:06pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14458) )
Mike Heinz (_mail_ (mailto:porkchop_d_clown at mac dot com) ):
Ryan,
Hrm. Overreacting? Perhaps your right - although I am at a complete loss to
understand/explain Charles' response.
Yes, there are right-wingers (and trolls who pretend to be right wingers)
who are as bad or worse than the email that was originally posted; but you have
to admit that the right tends to "ghettoize" them to one or two blogs (freep
comes to mind). I have found many right wing blogs that pride themselves on
their civil discussion boards; the only site I've found on the left that
keeps it clean is Talk Left.
1.16.2006 1:26pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14459) )
anna (_mail_ (mailto:anna at nomail.com) ):
Mr Jordan:
The entry was very careful to note this behavior existed on the right,
indeed it called the 2 noisy "poles" mirror images.
I suppose if we analyze this behavior it includes an inability to see
outside of a very narrow spectrum, I notice how those on the right are surprised
and hirt if anyone makes a milkd criticism while they think their attacks
perfectly normal. Their is a poor grasp of reality as we know it.
Another trick of the right is when mistakes or even corruption are found
among their heroes is to say "how about those Democrats or how about Clinton?"
as though the fact that others have flaws make your own ok though of course
their's are not. You seemed to be doing this.
1.16.2006 1:35pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14461) )
David CT:
Although this is just a current phenomena, but currently the left supports
their lunatics (free speech, etc) whereas the right denounces people like Pat
Robertson who is clearly off his nut (and forcing him to apologize the next
day). When MV gets a rightwing nut letter instead of trying the moral
equivalence card (well the left does it as well) I would just say, the guy is a
lunatic, ignore him. You want MV to take your side seriously, try "The guy is a
lunatic, ignore him".
And by the way coruption is an equal opportunity actor. As long as the
Republicans hold the House, Senate and Presidency what is the point in bribing
Democrats, so we will have many years of more Republican corruption than
Democratic corruption. And given the current dynamics of the Democratic party this
could be the case for a VERY long time. For America this is not a good thing.
I hope the Democrats get their house in order (and remember that "Crazy Uncle
Willie" is called that because he is well, crazy, not just exercisng his
rights of free hate, er speech).
And one other note, don't email when you are mad, you usually just make an
ass of yourself.
1.16.2006 2:32pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14462) )
Joe (_mail_ (mailto:gandypro at gmail.com) ):
FYI, I'm equally turned off when Republicans do it. Anyone who reads this
blog regularly can see that by the posts. Just read the chain linked posts. I
really don't listen to people who start off trying to demonize me. I don't
bother listening to them or reading them because there are too many people out
their making their cases by using facts.
Usually when I link to a post its because I like the way they made their
case. That's why you see me link to posts on the left, right and center. I
detest people on the left accusing people who don't agree with them on the war as
being unpatriotic just as equally as when I see people on the right do it.
This is one reason why we have polarization in this country: anyone who doesn't
agree with some people on the left and right is considered the enemy. I just
skimmed his email to make sure there weren't any obscenities but I have no
desire to listen to what he says because he lost me as soon as he started out
on the attack. A KEY ISSUE for people on the right and left is: is your goal
REALLY to lash out and attack people who don't agree with you, or to try to
increase your ranks by making a case using facts and logic? If you can lay out
your case with logic, you might make someone rethink some things a bit -- on
any issue. You'd think each party would want to expand their base. That
means there are X issues and you can get people to vote for your by laying out
your case. But if you go after people on one issue by accusing them of not
loving their country I would think that you have a chance of people thinking
that your message is a bit too far out in the Twilight Zone and that they might
be better of using their time for considering arguments on issues made by
more reasoned people elsewhere. I've gotten lots of critical emails from
readers, by the way. I've turned some into bylined Guest Voice columns because they
were so well-reasoned. The people who emailed me were shocked but I ran it as
a Guest Voice with a bold-faced intro (with their permission). I had one
that made me rethink my position on an issue because it made good points. And I
bet you I'd even agree with some of what this guy says -- but I'm too busy to
read anything written by someone who says I'm not patriotic. He loses
credibility by the way he starts out and I have absolutely no desire to read what
he says.
Some people on the right have accused me of being a hypocrite and a closet
liberal (if it's on a blog I just stop reading that blog for the same reasons
as above). But to date no one on the right has accused me of being a "weak
patriot." And, yes, I do believe if this is the kind of stuff that the
Democrats do in 2006 and 2008 they'll lose the elections. The GOP can't win with only
it's base and NEITHER can the Democrats. A little bit of serious discussion
minus demonization might be wise. For partisans of both parties.
1.16.2006 2:36pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14463) )
Holly in Cincinnati (_mail_ (mailto:hollyrob at earthlink.net) ):
Many of us neither have nor need Christ.
1.16.2006 2:47pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14464) )
Charles Jordan (_mail_ (mailto:trashman1936 at yahoo.com) ):
My comments were not off the topic. the topic is extremism on the left. Then
somebody said secularist wanted to remove religion from the public square.
First I wasn't sure it was even a serious comment. so I said religion in the
public square isn't as important as religion in the home. If people spent more
time worrying about what went on in their own house, the public square would
take care of itself. That was my point, I apologize if I went on too long.
The far right is just as silly as the far left. I don't mean to single out
the Democrats. Both sides are silly but both sides sure get their share of
attention for being silly. They want attention. Which is why the email should
have been ignored.
1.16.2006 2:56pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14465) )
edhula3 (_mail_ (mailto:edhula3 at hotmail.com) ):
I am a liberal and this angers me just as much as it would a conservative.
I hate it when liberals say that only veterans can have a voice or lead us
in matters of war. Partly because many (if not essentially all) of the people
saying that are trying to lead us in matters of war and have no war-time
experience. Moreover, once a soldier in Iraq speaks out in favor of staying the
course, his or her voice will be rather nicely ignored.
While yes, Congress does have the authority to declare war, the president IS
the Commander in Chief, so I would just assume that he has at least a small
roll to play in the nations military. And how many senators have served in
war?
1.16.2006 3:21pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14466) )
AustinRoth (_mail_ (mailto:jroth at austin.rr.com) ):
The extreme edges are closer to each other than to the center
(multi-dimensional geometry?)
It is what leads to Pat Roberston and Iranian Mullahs soundin alike.
I can picture this guy:
a) with a tin-foil hat and a copy of 'Behold a Pale Horse
or
b) crew-cut hair, beer belly, flannel shirt, sleeves rolled up to the elbow,
spittle coming out of his mouth as he screams in your face.
What I can't see him as is a Birkenstock clad, chino's wearing granola eater.
1.16.2006 3:35pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14467) )
Ryan:
Mike, I didn't suggest you were overreacting, just possibly reading more
into the post than was actually stated. We all do it at times. At least I know
I've done it before and probably will again.
Joe, you're definitely right. This attitude coming from the far ends that
anyone who doesn't agree with them is not only flat out wrong but is
unpatriotic/immoral/whatever isn't how to win elections. I have a suspicion that the
first party to realize this and to reach out to the middle instead of declaring
everyone with even the slightest difference of opinion an idiot will do very
well in this year's elections.
I can't blame you for not reading that e-mail. If an e-mail I got started
off like that, it would have been deleted within seconds. These people are
either too emotional to think rationally or are just trying to get under your
skin.
1.16.2006 3:46pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14468) )
Nominal Me (_mail_ (mailto:nominalme at yahoo.com) ) (_www_
(http://nominalme.blogspot.com/) ):
Clearly Joe, you are a commie, pinko, right wing, fascist, tree hugging,
America-hating, draft-dodging, paper-tiger, soft-on-crime, ignorant,
ideological, Islamist, extreme, baby-killing, anti-semetic, apologist for all that is
evildoing.
1.16.2006 3:55pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14469) )
Joe (_mail_ (mailto:gandypro at gmail.com) ):
That's what my mother says, too..
1.16.2006 4:10pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14471) )
David CT:
Thanks to being in academia half my friends are "... Birkenstock clad,
chino's wearing granola eater(s)".
Fully a thrd of those are more than capable of writing such hateful stuff.
1.16.2006 5:10pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14472) )
Elrod (_mail_ (mailto:a-astor at northwestern.edu) ):
Thanks Holly, I was thinking the same thing...
DavidCT,
I disagree that the right disavows Robertson and Falwell. They make
appearances of disavowing them, but they still reach out to them as legitimate
leaders among the "Christian" community. Pat Robertson's 700 Club is one of the
most heavily watched public affairs shows on television. Top GOP activists court
him on a regular basis. What's more, dispensationalist fundamentalist
Christians really believe what Pat Robertson says. He gets in trouble because he
reveals in public what extremist "Christians" say in private.
As for the left, how many prominent Democratic party figures defended Ward
Churchill? Does Ward Churchill have a seat at the Democratic political and
policy-making table? Noam Chomsky certainly doesn't. The Nation magazine has
very little influence among Democrats (compare to National Review and the
Republicans).
1.16.2006 5:12pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14475) )
R. Stone (_mail_ (mailto:rstone at rstone.com) ):
Mike,
If you doubt that your emailer represents a major voice in the Democratic
party, take a minute to read the comments on Daily Kos following any
national-security related post. You will lose your lunch.
1.16.2006 5:22pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14476) )
Laura:
Actually I do believe Kerry won a slight majority of independent voters in
'04.
1.16.2006 5:28pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14477) )
John Bono:
The GOP and the Dems are nowhere near the same now. The GOP has done a
masterful job of reigning in their kooks. Noone with a straight face believes that
Pat Robertson speaks for the rank and file of the GOP. Pat Buchanan was
pretty much excommunicated from the party in '00. Can one say the same thing
about the Dems? Howard Dean is the party chairman. Nancy Pelosi is the head of
Democratic caucus in the House. Al Sharpton gets a prime time speech at the
Convention, and Michael Moore is given the best speech at the convention, right
next to Jimmy Carter.
Meanwhile, Kennedy and Schumer accuse Judge Alito of being a bigot, nearly
the entire Democratic party with the singular exception of Joe Lieberman
scrape within a few thousands of an inch away of accusing the president of
committing high treason, and you claim that both the far left wing of the Democrats
and the far right of the GOP is doing the same thing? I'm sorry, but I don't
see it.
The letter you received is coming right from the center of the base of the
Dems. He is the voter that the Democrats are pandering to today. Yes, he is an
extreme leftie, but the Dems are in the process of taking a left turn right
off of a cliff.
1.16.2006 5:28pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14478) )
Ryan Waxx (_mail_ (mailto:none at hotmail.com) ):
I disagree that the right disavows Robertson and Falwell... Pat Robertson's
700 Club is one of the most heavily watched public affairs shows on
television...Top GOP activists court him on a regular basis.
Oh, goodie! Now we conservatives get to paint the left as being exactly the
same as Michael Moore. After all, his latest movie was heavily watched, and
he got a prime seat in the last democratic presidential convention(which is
"courting" in anyone's book).
So, now I can tell everyone what you libs "really think" despite your
"appearances of disavowing (him)".
Hey, doesn't that sauce for the gander taste good anymore? Why are you
choking? Do you need a doctor?
1.16.2006 5:30pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14479) )
Laura:
Doug,I will not apologize for believing religious belief is a personal
matter and should remain separate from government. That certainly is not a radical
position. However imposing religion on people is radical.
1.16.2006 5:34pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14480) )
Laura:
People keep insisting that Howard Dean is some sort of leftist radical. But
if people were even remotely aware of how he governed VT., they would be
quite surprised to learn how moderate he actually is.
1.16.2006 5:37pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14481) )
David CT:
An interesting misunderstanding of the political landscape. Falwell and
Robertson have both had to eaten crow lately thanks to other republicans
complaining, and over the last ten years each have lost standing in the conservatve
movement, worrying about them is so 1992. Has Michael Moore, Howard "I hate
all Republicans" Dean, et al made any sorries for their over the top
statements? Can you seriously tell me that Howard Dean is unimportant. Didn't think so.
(By the way, in interest of full dsclosure I am a right of center
libertarian, not a republican, my vote can be had by anybody who is interested in
smaller government and frankly both parties are flunking that test). Your view of
the right is terribly one dimensional.
Funny you fail to mention MoveOn and George Soros. Then there is Michael
Moore and the Hollywood left (like George Clooney who by the way blames himself
for Kerry's loss as he didn't do the choo-choo thing with Kerry when
offered). And every single democrat who posits that I am either stupid or a Nazi
unless I march EXACTLY to their tune.
I also know that the left is multidimentional and we are only talking about
a fringe.
By the way, I don't hear any lefist actually condemning Ward Churchill or
Noam Chomsky either.
Let me put in no uncertain terms: Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson are twits
and should be dusted off every four years and then thrown back into the
closet. Your turn Elrod.
1.16.2006 5:40pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14482) )
David CT:
Laura, you are right, I think Dean caught his disease in 2003.
1.16.2006 5:42pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14483) )
Anonymous:
C'mon, Elrod. The Nation and National Review aren't equivalents, the New
Republic and National Review are. Ever read William F. Buckley on the Iraq War,
or the magazine as a whole on drug enforcement? National Review is a big-tent
magazine -- which is why it's influential.
1.16.2006 5:46pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14485) )
Otis Wildflower (_mail_ (mailto:otis at unixslave.com) ):
Meh, choosing a party merely means choosing whose hypocracies you'll
forgive... Or share...
1.16.2006 5:51pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14486) )
JimT (_mail_ (mailto:jim_taylor at ieee.org) ):
What does your correspondent have to say about Franklin Roosevelt? Secretary
of the Navy in WWI. Polio in the '20s. He was elected while confined to a
wheelchair, and presided over the Allied struggle in WWII. Never wore the
uniform, never saw combat, no way was he qualified to be commander-in-chief.
Right?
Where would we have been if he had died when Henry Wallace was VP instead of
hanging on until he had Harry Truman for backup? Combat soldier Truman was
there at the finish, but it was the guy with the useless legs that did the
hard part.
Name calling is bad enough, but absolute ignorance of the heroes on his own
side is unforgiveable.
1.16.2006 5:54pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14488) )
Aaron Converse (_mail_ (mailto:philosoph0123 at yahoo.com) ):
Laura: "Imposing religion" is an extraordinarily loaded phrase. Until you
can find a purely materialistic basis for morality, then you should admit that
most of the arguments that are made for programs such as welfare and such are
based upon an implicit view of right-and-wrong which cannot be demonstrated
in a purely rational fashion. Is this "imposing morality" on persons? If so,
then how different is it to "impose religion" on them?
Also, Dean's moderation in his governance of Vermont does NOT mean that he
is a moderate in his chairmanship of the DNC. And this implies (without
proving) that much of the Democratic base is quite extreme; otherwise, why would
Dean pander to this wing of the party?
And yes, the point about Pat Robertson is valid...but note that moderate
Republicans will often publicly disavow, disagree with, and disown his remarks.
And it seems to me that moderate Democrats are FAR less willing to do so with
their extreme figures...
1.16.2006 5:57pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14489) )
GEORGE (_mail_ (mailto:ADGAGDASG at GHKHLAHRLJGSHH.ORG) ) (_www_
(http://sssfhdgsgesgsgegdsgsr/) ):
() _THE CURRENT WAR OUR FATHERS,AND SISTERS ARE WAGING CURRENTLY_
(http://tigersincrisis.com/)
1.16.2006 6:02pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14490) )
Ryan Waxx (_mail_ (mailto:none at hotmail.com) ):
The war on all caps?
1.16.2006 6:04pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14492) )
Jim Rockford (_mail_ (mailto:whiskey_199 at yahoo.com) ):
Joe -- the reason this guy is spouting off the way he has is that 9/11
fractured the Democratic Party's worldview, while for most Republicans it did not.
His view that only Medals count in public politics is that he knows that
Democratic assertions are not responsive to people's concerns, or reflective of
reality. That's why attempts to stifle debate by asserting "absolute moral
authority" and citing a third-grade understanding of the Constitution (which is
pretty unclear about storing and data mining masses of phone calls through
advanced computer algorithms and data analysis).
Bottom line, after 9/11 Republicans broadly (Scowcroft and co being the
exception) felt that the old policies had not worked and aggressiveness in all
areas was warranted to stop terror attacks on the US. Abroad and against
terrorists domestically. On balance most voters agreed.
Dems believe that 9/11 meant we were "evil" and on some measure deserved it,
and that fighting back only made them "angrier" and made things worse. This
post 1968 profound pacifism and passivity was only made worse by Clintonian
triangulation which worked spectacularly well domestically and spectacularly
badly internationally. Dems have only "remember Mogadishu? We'll do THAT
again" to offer in foreign policy hence the extreme rhetoric on who can comment on
national security policy (Murtha and Code Pink, apparently) and who cannot
(the Swift boat vets with chests filled with medals).
Murtha's appearing with genuine Communists in Code Pink (founder Medea
Benjamin is an advowed Communist) whose most notable action was to give terrorists
in Fallujah fighting Marines a donation of $650,000 is questionable to the
average voter who already feels that Dems will assauge civil liberties
questions by sacrificing ordinary Americans to the last man, woman, and child.
Hence the supposedly "Constitutional" issues about listening in to phone calls
with 9/11 Architect Khalid Sheik Mohammed or waterboarding the same guy (you
could get a parade of people willing to do far worse to him).
Dems don't believe we can win in Iraq, Afghanistan, and against bin Laden,
offer nothing to stop terror, deny that terrorism against us is a problem,
have no answer for Ahmadinejad's Hitler 2.0 act (other than League of Nations
Part Two- The UN Years) and generally act as if America really shouldn't exist
and certainly has no "right" to defend itself. Al Gore's speech was basically
a rehash of the talking points of your letter writer.
Against that alternative even a semi-competent (on a good day) GWB who will
at least fight SOMETIME gets the nod. He's probably hoping Dems indict him
and try to impeach him for listening in to terrorists without a warrant.
1.16.2006 6:11pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14493) )
Ryan Waxx (_mail_ (mailto:none at hotmail.com) ):
And why only our fathers and sisters? Are you disciminating against our
mothers and brothers? Did you lose their invitations?
1.16.2006 6:12pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14494) )
The Big Forehead (_mail_ (mailto:rearadmiral3 at yahoo.com) ) (_www_
(http://http:myverybrain.blogspot.com/) ):
I've got to get in here now - and I've got to bookmark this site.
I've been having fits about things to do with Kos lately (here's the _latest
offering_ (http://myverybrain.blogspot.com/2006/01/more-on-kos-response.html)
). There are two key propositions competing propositions in this country
today and both of them reside on the notion of warfare. On the one hand,
conservatives push the line that we're at war; to an extent that's true, but they've
taken this notion and inflated it to the idea that we're in an "emergency
powers" kind of war. This guides their thinking on many, many issues.
The flip-side of that is the hard-core liberal/progressive contention that
we're at war - but with the GOP. The basic idea here is that you're either
against Bush, or you're against the country.
I'm in neither camp and, as such, I'm not having much fun following politics
lately...but I keep doing it....which brings to mind something about the
definition of insanity.
1.16.2006 6:13pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14495) )
theAmericanist (_mail_ (mailto:email) ):
This strikes me as an example of the difference between professionals and
amateurs.
Politics is a matter of addition, not subtraction. But you can ACHIEVE
addition through division.
The Right has been very good -- so much so, that they brag about it -- at
creating wedge issues that motivate single issue conservatives, particularly
those moved by religious faith and/or a kind of reflex patriotism, which
leaves those who fund conservative campaigns free to loot various public
enterprises (see, Jack Abrahamoff and Grover Norquist). They respond to head fakes and
miss the play.
Look at how an issue like flag-burning plays. There are, what, two examples
of burning an American flag a year as a political protest, if that many? The
Constitutional issue is far more serious than the actual offense. There are
lots of others, too -- the 10 Commandments? The "War on Christmas"? There is
a VERY long list of fake issues that have a principle embedded in 'em, but
which move far more votes than they are worth -- and they are all right-wing
issues.
The chickenhawk issue is legit, even if this guy was a knucklehead how he
raised it. Look at the Swift Boat guys' attacks on Kerry. Sure, Kerry is a
stiff -- but he really did serve in Vietnam, which Bush and Cheney did not. "They
jest at scars that never felt a wound." Attacking his war service with an
incredibly bogus series of charges just to confuse that core issue -- he
served, they didn't -- is why folks raise the chickenhawk issue, however badly, at
every opportunity.
I coach a kid whose Dad went to West Point -- who will NOT let his son join
the military, because he looks at the Bush administration and recognizes they
send OTHER people's kids to fight and die.
Look at the attacks on Murtha -- now right wingers are doing after HIM for
his Vietnam medals. Doesn't that bug you more than some clown's email?
Look at how Bush's guys went after McCain in South Carolina during the 2000
campaign: this is a PATTERN, established by professionals. They're playing
you, man.
In WW2, pretty much every ranking American official had kids in the
military: the President's son served, his uncle died. NAME me the ranking Bush
administration official with a child in harm's way.
Well?
I've lost two friends in Iraq, plus the fiance of one of my son's
afterschool teachers. I have a nephew who flies F-16s for a living. It is a perfectly
legit question just how far you are PERSONALLY backing your opinions --
because if you're not, perhaps you should be questioning how cheaply you've come by
them, and for that matter, how easily you're manipulated.
Don't ya think?
,
1.16.2006 6:24pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14496) )
RMc:
That's the funny thing about being an independent...nobody ever believes you
are one. "How can you be an independent," they bellow, "when you agree with
Politician X about Issue Y, you tool!"
Remembr the One Drop Test? Back in the old racist South, if you white but
had any black relatives, no matter how distant ("one drop of black blood"), you
were considered black. Period.
Now, we use the One Drop test in our politics. It doesn't matter if A agrees
with B on 99 different topics; if A disagrees with B on Topic 100, bang! A
is One Of Them, part of the problem, not part of the solution.
And they wonder why people don't vote...
1.16.2006 6:30pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14497) )
Mister Snitch! (_mail_ (mailto:mistersnitch at hotmail.com) ) (_www_
(http://mistersnitch.blogspot.com/) ):
Actually, Joe, I think you tend to swing further left than center, but I
find you reasonable and open-minded. That's all anyone can ask of another human
being - respect and a fair hearing. To demand agreement (as we see Internet
denizens do so often) is more or less insane.
In answer to your question, Yes, this guy is what's out there. I'm from
urban New Jersey, where Republicans don't identify themselves as such for fear of
being accosted. The worst left-wing bigots air their views here with
impunity, and it gets pretty wild. I've gotten email like yours. Once in a blue
moon, I post something just so readers can see what comes in. Most of the time,
you just dump it.
If the Republicans DID hire someone to act like a left-wing loon, the act
would only get traction because so many people had already encountered other
loons of the same stripe. The danger is, if the loon were revealed as a paid
operative, that would hurt the Republicans. So, why would they bother? I mean,
we have video of George Galloway lapping up a saucer of milk on national TV.
Think you can come up with something better than that?
1.16.2006 6:33pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14498) )
Neo (_mail_ (mailto:warnerme at comcast.net) ):
patriot - a person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to
defend it against enemies and detractors.
This unpatriotic "thing" is just completely over the top. While I do view
giving "direct aid" (i.e. money supplies, etc.) to an avowed enemy as
unpatriotic, and perhaps treasonous, I don't view anything that a Jerry Falwell or a
Rep. Murtha has said to be "unpatriotic".
Expecting everyone to agree with you doesn't make them unpatriotic, it makes
you narrow minded and plain stupid.
1.16.2006 6:34pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14502) )
Jim C. (_mail_ (mailto:zgystardst at yahooSPAM.ISEVILcom) ):
Charles Jordan wrote: "But Mike, don't the Right do the exact same thing? --
telling Democrats they are too stupid to see the self evident truth of
Christianity."
Mr. Jordan conflates Republicans and Christians. A fundamental (how ironic!)
error.
Mike Heinz missed that. That makes 3 strikes. Jordan, yer out! :D
anna wrote: "Another trick of the right is when mistakes or even corruption
are found among their heroes is to say "how about those Democrats or how
about Clinton?"
And a trick of the left is to say something is "a trick of the right" when
the left does it, too. That doesn't make the tactic itself wrong or right. It
does, however, show the left as disingenuous, at least.
Laura wrote: "People keep insisting that Howard Dean is some sort of leftist
radical. But if people were even remotely aware of how he governed VT., they
would be quite surprised to learn how moderate he actually is."
Ah yes. The moderate Dean: "We're good and [the Republicans] are evil." If
this is moderation, I certainly would be surprised and seriously scared to see
what Laura considers a mere "leftist radical".
1.16.2006 7:14pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14504) )
The Disenfranchised Voter (_www_ (http://disvoter.blogspot.com/) ):
Joe, you would be more willing to vote Republican because some asshat sent
you a nasty email expressing his own opinions?
Well...what can I say, I honestly didn't thing you were such a moron.
1.16.2006 7:24pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14505) )
ajacksonian (_mail_ (mailto:ajacksonian *at* gmail *dot* com) ) (_www_
(http://ajacksonian.blogger.com/) ):
My problem with the Democratic party is that they have lost their roots in
the hard-ball national security realm. This was the party of Andy Jackson,
perhaps losing its way in partisanship during the Civil War but coming back to
realize that America was worth defending. The party of FDR and Kennedy, of
Scoop Jackson and Sam Nunn, of Joe Lieberman and Zell Miller. When I heard Zell
Miller give his speech at the Republican Convention, I shivered and badly...
he was not changing parties... nor changing sides... and the ghost of Old
Hickory walked with him. I do not agree with everything Andy Jackson did, but do
agree with his attitude, and that is the fourth rail of US political
thought. Unseen and unheard in times of peace, tolerant and honorable to others so
long as it is returned and respected. We can always disagree on how to ensure
that America was prosperous and striving to do better, but to the outside
world America should be We The People.
That was the mooring of the Democratic party, and now they have chosen to
let go of it. To do so is to let go of a large swath of American voters who
vote Jacksonian in times of trouble. Do not try to espouse Jefferson, Hamilton
or Wilson to a Jacksonian in times of troubles. During the Cold War the
Democratic party realized this and set the course through Truman and Kennedy. That
is the heritage of the Democratic party, First in War, First in Peace.
Without either they will not have the hearts of their countrymen.
I have many problems with Republicans, losing their way in the troughs of
pork, forgetting that it is small business that grows this country and makes it
the best place in the world to live, and deciding that Big Government might
actually be useful for *something*. They are working very, very hard to
alienate the people who care about such things. While some of that can be let
slip for a short while, it can not go on indefinitely. And that turn-around on
core issues has been sharp and fast. They have done what was necessary to
attack the problem brought to our shores on 9/11, but have no stomach for finding
an answer to it. And so the Jacksonian support that they garnered through
respecting individual effort and achievement, of defending the country after it
has been attacked is waning. The party that promised to come in and cut Big
Government under Reagan, blew it once and now again. Perhaps they will need
some time in the political wilderness soon.
Those that believe in individual respect and honor of effort, of willing to
share ideas to build a nation, of stepping up defend the country when it is
attacked look upon the festering political climate in this country with
askance. I am one of those and my vote belongs to me, as We The People laid out in
the Constitution. It belongs to no party, no religion, no lock step mode of
thought, save that so well done in the Preamble to the Constitution.
"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union,
establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common
defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to
ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the
United States of America."
A more perfect union... perfection is not possible, but society can always
be more perfect.
Establish justice, insure domestic tranquility... fair and reasonable laws
set by the people, for the people, fairly administered.
Provide for the common defense... protect the country and the people therein
from outside aggression and attempts to end this experiment in liberty.
Promote the general welfare... to allow us a climate go grow and prosper as
a people.
Secure the blessings of Liberty for ourselves and our posterity... make sure
that we are as fair to our children as our parents were to us, and pass on
this precious gift that has been entrusted to us.
To a Jacksonian the country is in Common Defense times, and if neither side
bother to address this issue, from terrorist networks to illegal immigration,
you can expect low voter turnouts until a Jacksonian politician *somewhere*
says that this country is worth defending and the job needs to be finished.
Not ended, ala Viet Nam, but FINISHED.
Until then I will have nothing to do with Left or Right in this country.
I wish you all well, and hope someone, somewhere understands this.
1.16.2006 7:24pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14506) )
The Disenfranchised Voter (_www_ (http://disvoter.blogspot.com/) ):
and the same goes if you were more inclined to vote Democrat if some asshat
sent you a nasty email expression his own opinons.
1.16.2006 7:28pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14507) )
big dirigible (_mail_ (mailto:bigdirigible at rubberdinosaurs.com) ) (_www_
(http://bigdirigible.rubberdinosaurs.com/) ):
But Joe -
If you don't read past the point where the guy goes weird, you'll miss the
best part. Did you know that he considers Bush and Cheney guilty of "perfidy"?
First time I've heard that accusation, which is quite a feat since we all
know that Bush et al are accused of everything up to and including the weather,
dumb TV shows, and bad gas mileage.
1.16.2006 7:31pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14508) )
Holly in Cincinnati (_mail_ (mailto:hollyrob at earthlink.net) ):
Yes, these dingbats should learn how to write.
I'm center-left and I have condemned (and seen condemned) Ward Churchill and
Noam Chomsky.
1.16.2006 7:43pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14511) )
K. Gregory (_mail_ (mailto:seriouscaller at hotmail.com) ):
I love it. Disenfranchised Voter calls Joe a moron in a post where he's
talking about verbal excess. DV: the problem is if you fling around the word
"moron" people may think it fits the flinger. YOu need to read his post again. He
says he stops reading when he reads this kind of crap. Obviously you can
turn off potential allies in politics if you go after them because there is the
old saying that if you hang around with a skunk you being to smell like one.
I see from the trackback that joe was also blasted by the right. So this must
be his lucky day!
1.16.2006 7:52pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14512) )
DougJ (_mail_ (mailto:gooppatriot50 at gmail.com) ):
Top GOP activists court him on a regular basis.
As well they should. Robertson is a man of wisdom and faith. He's taken a
lot of flak for what he said about dividing the lands of Israel, but the fact
remains that is what scripture says. If you don't like it, take it up with a
higher power ;)
1.16.2006 8:00pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14515) )
Holly in Cincinnati (_mail_ (mailto:hollyrob at earthlink.net) ):
Robertson is pretty unclear in his understanding of the Holy Scriptures.
1.16.2006 8:12pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14518) )
nonaligned:
In this country, the military was put under civilian control for a reason.
Nobody has the right to tell anybody that they don't have the right to opine
on military matters for any reason whatsoever.
As for the "swiftboating" of John Kerry, Kerry was using his war experience
to try to innoculate himself against potential criticism in foreign affairs.
No go. If your only substantive foreign policy plank is that you fought in a
war, you better be ready to have that record pored over under a microscope.
It disturbs me when people try to put some topics off limits. What are they
trying to hide?
1.16.2006 8:47pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14519) )
conservative:
Robertson is a flake who is regularly trotted out by the media to discredit
conservatives. Hardly anyone of stature on the right takes him seriously.
1.16.2006 8:48pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14523) )
The Disenfranchised Voter (_www_ (http://disvoter.blogspot.com/) ):
K--
I said he is a moron if a single email from some asshole turns him off from
a political party because anyone who even implies that getting nasty emails
causes them to vote for the opposition party is a moron. Period.
If some wack job Republican emailer calls me a traitor, that doesn't turn me
off to the Republican party. It just turns me off to that person. It also
demonstrates that all political parties have their dickheads.
Joe clearly equates the single emailer as evidence of a systematic problem
with the Democrats and their image/message.
That is such faulty logic that I don't even know where to begin.
I stand by my original statement. If you are more inclined to vote for the
opposing party because a single angry email by a Democrat or Republican pushes
your buttons the wrong way then you are a moron. Period.
1.16.2006 9:11pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14535) )
VTsnowshoe:
"People keep insisting that Howard Dean is some sort of leftist radical. But
if people were even remotely aware of how he governed VT., they would be
quite surprised to learn how moderate he actually is."
I am completely aware of Dean's tenure in VT: he was my govenor for about a
decade. Nobody shed tears for him as he left.
Compared to the Democrats in VT he is moderate. Compared to the rest of New
England, he's very liberal. Compared to the rest of the country he's every
bit as nutty as the right wing tries to portray him. He turned Vermont into
essentially a single payer health care system (there are only 2 insurance
companies of any size left) and drove the costs through the roof (with "community
rating"). He pandered to the VTNEA and loaded the state down with taxes. He
plundered rainy day funds and diverted funds earmarked for infrastructure
repairs to social programs, leaving the state of the state's highways perilous.
1.16.2006 9:37pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14548) )
Jake myers (_mail_ (mailto:-) ):
wow
1.16.2006 9:47pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14549) )
Jake myers (_mail_ (mailto:-) ):
are you okay.i am worried about you.is this soe twisted joke?
1.16.2006 9:47pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14557) )
Joe (_mail_ (mailto:gandypro at gmail.com) ):
By the time you folks read this George will be gone from this site
permanently.
1.16.2006 9:55pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14558) )
DBL (_mail_ (mailto:x at x.com) ):
In the old days, the Soviets called pacifists supporters of Hitler. They
were "objectively" pro-facist because their actions in effect lent aid and
comfort to the facists - by seeking to disarm the West, they made facism's triumph
more likely. Orwell wrote a good deal about this notion of "objectively"
supporting some cause that you hate and eventually concluded that it didn't
really make sense. There's an important difference between the Quaker who hates
war and the Nazi-sympathizer who wants to see Hitler triumphant, even though
the consequences of their actions might be similar. We are still fighting
these same battles today, only it's the Deans and Gores and the Pelosis who are
accused of "objectively" supporting causes that they surely hate, namely the
Baathist facists and the theocratic jihadists.
Bottom line: we need better language to describe these activities. It may be
true in some sense that the anti-war Democrats are lending aid and support
to the facists and jihadists in Iraq, but I cannot believe that is their
purpose (Michael Moore and Cindy Sheehan and their ilk are different because they
do consciously support the facists and jihadists) and it is incomplete in an
important sense to label them as unpatriotic because of the unintended
consequences of their acts.
1.16.2006 9:59pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14559) )
Joe (_mail_ (mailto:gandypro at gmail.com) ):
If you're just coming in on this discussion, someone named George decided to
play with the comments button. It was actually funny the first two, three or
even six times but when it hit about 15 and he didn't get Jake's hint it was
time to bid him farewell. He becomes only the third person banned from this
site in some two years.
1.16.2006 10:01pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14561) )
_Jon (_www_ (http://www.weswear.ws/) ):
Honestly, is he someone from the RNC pretending to be a Democrat to
discredit them?
I doubt it.
Or is this what's REALLY out there?
The reason is that every Saturday I have to sit across the dinner table from
my Father-In-Law. He says many of the same things, but without the personal
invective.
Personally, I've got some conservative opinions and some liberal beliefs -
pun intentional. I enjoy - I *love* a good debate.
I will engage in conversation regarding sex, politics, and religion at a
bar, party, or lunch break.
I *know* there are people who agree 100% with the e-mail you received. It's
unfortunate that you had to experience that. It's very disturbing to be
accosted like that by a drunk in a bar. Kinda scary, actually.
1.16.2006 10:18pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14562) )
Rambie (_mail_ (mailto:rambie.at.gmail) ):
Mister Snitch!: I'm from urban New Jersey, where Republicans don't identify
themselves as such for fear of being accosted. The worst left-wing bigots air
their views here with impunity, and it gets pretty wild.
Since this seems to be "bash the left" night and far be it for me to come to
their defense, but I have to agree with one point made by Charles Jordan.
The bigots of both parties use the same divisive tactics. As you said,
Republicans don't identify themselves in urban NJ. Well, as a moderate in Utah, I get
accosted if I don't agree with the GOP 100% of the time. The right-wing
bigots here can freely air their views just like the lefties in NJ can.
I say this with a hat-tip to ajacksonian. I really wish we, the sane
moderates, could form a new party, ignore the far left and right, and go about the
business of running this nation.
1.16.2006 10:24pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14564) )
holdfast (_mail_ (mailto:mike at unixg.ubc.ca) ):
DBL wrote -
.. and it is incomplete in an important sense to label them as unpatriotic
because of the unintended consequences of their acts.
True, as far as it goes - I cannot and do not believe that Kerry, Pelosi et
al actually WANT the Islamo-Nutters ("I-N") to win, but:
1) The smarter Dems (Kerry, Gore) being, for the most part, intelligent
folks, have to know that their words and/or actions do in fact make such a
victory more likely - and they do it anyway, despite that awareness. They are
making a conscious choice to pursue a course that makes such an I-N victory more
likely - they seem to think that this is an acceptable cost. This does speak
to their judgment - voters can decide the rest;
2) Some Dems just don't seem to care, as long as they can hurt Bush (this
ties into point 1) - If you ask them, of course they don't want the I-N to win,
but generally they are too busy trying to hurt Bush to think or care about
such consequences; and
3) Other Dems are just too ignorant on foreign policy matters to even grasp
what is at stake and what the consequences of an I-N victory would be (yes
Dr. Dean, I'm looking at you) these are folks who just don't care too much
about foreign affairs, have made their careers in domestic politics, and would
just like to talk about healthcare etc (topics where Dems generally do better -
so it's a pretty logical instinct). There are also republicans in this mold
(often called paleo-cons - Robert Novak comes to mind).
These folks may be showing very poor judgment, and I happen to think that
they need to be routed on the battlefield of ideas, but they are certainly not
traitors - in fact, if one looks at American history, isolationism and
nativism are, sadly, as American as applie pie.
1.16.2006 11:08pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14570) )
Miguel (_mail_ (mailto:ppp at email.com) ):
I think that guy who wrote the email to the host of this site IS A MUSLIM.
Muslims can never mention allah or muhamed without adding some words, always
the same. Funny how this guy can not name Bush or Cheney, without adding some
words, always the same. I have the impression he's a muslim, a secret hater
of the USA. Anyway, F* him.
1.17.2006 1:17am
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14574) )
noah (_mail_ (mailto:noahpraetorius at hotmail.com) ):
Warning...DougJ has been caught on several occasions at other sites posing
as a wingnut.
As to the thread and the original e-mail...mostly over the top. Do moderates
ever post here?
I think the President has been restrained in his response to his
critics...review his speeches.
He has been slammed repeatedly for months, even years. It should clear to
anybody but a complete idiot that he is not going to cut and run. Get over it.
All the clamoring is just encouraging the enemy.
1.17.2006 2:15am
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14581) )
DougJ (_mail_ (mailto:gooppatriot50 at gmail.com) ):
I think the President has been restrained in his response to his
critics...review his speeches.
He's been very restrained, I agree. And the fact is his critics do want to
cut and run themselves. It seems we are in agreement, Noah -- why you feel the
need to smear me ins't clear at all.
1.17.2006 7:51am
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14582) )
Dtrumpet (_mail_ (mailto:dturner16 at tampabay.rr.com) ):
I was a democrat for over 40 years and have come to believe that the party
is dead. It was taken over by dictators. That is why I am now a registered
Independent.
Hate is a valuable emotion, but it is an emotion that is meant to teach the
person who hates the error of Hate. Anyone who has exhibited the emotion of
hate begins to recognize that it gives control to the object of that hate. The
hater is the one who is constantly angry, doesn't sleep well, thinks things
that no rational human being should, winds up with a bad stomach and takes
actions that are almost always counterproductive.
It is the reason why one trys to engender anger and hate in those that one
wishes to defeat. Whatever salient points that might occur in a hater's
postulations they are lost in the irrationality of hate.
The real problem with the democratic party is that it is no longer
democratic. When the leadership can make everyone tow the same line it denotes a party
that is no longer healthy. Dissent is healthy. Even though I do not desire
to be a Republican, note I do not capitalize the D in democrat because I do
not believe they are democrats, they at least fight and argue with each other.
How else would you explain Senator Specter leadership position and the gang
of 14 et al?
If you are aconservative just let the Left keep up the hate and debate the
issues with well raesoned argumentation. The more the hate talks the more it
repels those who think at all.
1.17.2006 7:54am
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14588) )
Ryan:
I'll second Rambie's point. As a moderate who at least currently leans left
more than right, I can tell you that I've frequently found myself in
situations where I have to listen to some right wingnut ramble on about how everyone
who expresses even one left-leaning opinion is an unpatriotic, anti-religion,
socialist, tax happy big government fan. This comes from large swaths of
suburban and rural Wisconsin. Of course, I can also go to urban and certain
rural areas and feel the same fear of expressing a right-leaning opinion.
Once again, I'm having trouble telling the difference between the far left
and the far right.
1.17.2006 8:20am
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14589) )
Jim M:
As the wingnuts on both sides get further away from center, you almost have
to wonder when the rope is going to break. Problem is that the more wingnutty
both sides get, the more the middle doesn't care and doesn't participate.
Combine that with the gerrymander district and wingnut favoring primaries, you
get this mess.
Probably time for the US to get rid of the primary system and have an open
free for all election. That would help clean up the wingnuts reign of terror.
Until then, I am waiting for the rope to break and hope for the wingnuts to
fly into oblivion when it does. Maybe someone in the center has a pair of
scissors.
1.17.2006 8:54am
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14590) )
Ryan Corbett (_mail_ (mailto:corbettr at fultonschools.org) ):
I grew up in the middle, politically. Usually leaning to the left because I
wasn't religious and disagreed with the religious right. However, after
fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, I have continually moved to the right due to the
distorting of facts by the leaders of the left and the media. I now vote
Republican and cannot foresee voting Democrat in the future. In the end, time
will tell if the war on terrorism is a success. Too many people try to
determine if it has failed or succeeded before it is done. I have noticed that the
country hasn't had a major attack since 9/11 (4 years ago) outside of Iraq and
Afghanistan. That is a good sign after having attacks on the World Trade
Center, the USS Cole, the Khobar Towers, the Pentagon and the bombing of 2 US
Embassies in a five year span.
Ryan Corbett
1.17.2006 8:56am
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14600) )
DrObviousSo (_mail_ (mailto:drTAKEMEOUTobviousso at gmail.com) ) (_www_
(http://www.zigguratofdoom.com/) ):
Good post. Poked around a little more, and liked what I saw. Added you to my
xml feeds.
Formulating a way to say "have a good day" without forming a full sentence.
Oh.
1.17.2006 11:17am
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14612) )
noah (_mail_ (mailto:noahpraetorius at hotmail.com) ):
No smear...DougJ. As you well know you were outed as a fake at Just One
Minute where you spouted racist statements...then bragged over at another blog
that you had fooled the commenters there and that they were racist bigots
because they had ignored your comments.
1.17.2006 2:41pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14614) )
The Disenfranchised Voter (_www_ (http://disvoter.blogspot.com/) ):
I think the President has been restrained in his response to his
critics...review his speeches.
LOL.
Talk about delusional. Implying your critics are traitors is restrained?!
LOL!
1.17.2006 3:07pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14623) )
Captaink59 (_mail_ (mailto:mkrause at sio.midco.net) ):
Laura,
What is your definition of imposing religion ?
My biggiest gripe about Libs/Leftist who decry "Right Wing Christians"
trying to impose their religion on society is that they never seem to tell Rev
Jackson or Rev Sharpton to get out of politics. Is it not possible that equally
intelligent people can read the Bible and come to differing conclusions about
how we are to help those in need ? From the comments of the Left, ONLY
government programs can show your morality, not private giving. When John Kerry
call the Budget immoral because the tax rates on the rich aren't high enough,
is he imposing his Religion on us ?
If you read any history of the Social Welfare movement, you will see that it
was started as a religious concern. There are left wing Christians who have
'imposed' there belief system on the rest of us, why can't right wing
christians have the same chance ?
1.17.2006 4:38pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14631) )
The Disenfranchised Voter (_www_ (http://disvoter.blogspot.com/) ):
Imposing religion? Putting the 10 commandments on courthouse steps seems to
fit the bill...
1.17.2006 6:53pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14644) )
thibaud (_mail_ (mailto:t_thibaud at yahoo.com) ):
A pox on both your corrupt, dessicated, gerrymandering houses. Neither of
these gazillionaires' clubs gives a f*** about actually getting a handle on
immigration, or making affordable health insurance for every American a reality,
or enabling real competition in the broadband sphere and enabling thousands
of startups to emerge and consumers to save billions in aggregate. Our
betters know that abortion is more important than all these issues combined. And
that making war on the Other Side is more important than listening to other
Americans, respecting their concerns, and finding ways to persuade them without
smirks, shrieks and sneers.
Neither Falwell nor Fonda. Neither Mikey Moore nor Patty Robertson. Long
past time the non-fanatical centrists in both parties, and millions of
independents, banded together to form a new party that cares little for the social
issues and cares a ton about addressing all the sources of insecurity--Islamist
terror, corporate games with employee pensions, insecurity of access to
affordable health insurance, sh*tty schools and spiraling college tuition-- that
affect those of us who are not rich enough for either Bush's Pioneers or
Kerry's Trust Funder brigades.
1.17.2006 10:07pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14646) )
MM (_mail_ (mailto:mmaclenn at gmail.com) ):
This thread has become emblematic of the problem. "Our side" excoriates
these extremes. "Your side" embraces them.
"The Right" wants this.
Oh, yeah? Beats what "The Left" would do.
And only rarely did it cover the actual influence level of these extremists.
Who has a larger audience and influence: Ward Churchill or Pat Robertson?
Who speaks for their monolithic party (of course the parties are monolithic,
just ask Norbizness) more: James Dobson or Michael Moore?
When "the left" comprises opinions ranging from Kevin Drum to Jeralyn
Merritt to Joe Lieberman, and "the right" consists of that party line mindset of
Tom Coburn, John Cole and The Comissar, it's silly to act as though either side
is a single entity marching lockstep through history.
The problem is it's easy to find the most horrible thing said by a
politician/pundit on either side, or a commenter at Free Republic or Democratic
Underground and paint with a broad brush. It's a hell of a lot more difficult to be
intellectually honest about the significance of the comment.
1.17.2006 10:17pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14648) )
thibaud (_mail_ (mailto:t_thibaud at yahoo.com) ):
MM: the issue is not the breadth of the debating club, it's the capture of
the electoral process by each side's moronic zealots. Your big tent conceit
falls apart when applied to primary races. For example, Giuliani does not stand
a snowball's chance in hell of winning the Republican nomination in 2008
because of the lock on that process held by the far right and the religious
zealots in states like South Carolina. For the Dems, the ascendance of moronic
"antiwar" types like Mikey Moore forces even centrists like Gore and Howard
Dean to go off the deep end and rant like psychopaths if they're to gain the
blessing of the Kos-addled Democratic base, raise money from them (and Soros
Bing &Lewis Llc) and win primary races on the road to nomination.
One result is that the nation is deprived of (on the R side) the only
national political figure whose leadership stature was enhanced by both 9/11 and
Katrina and (on the D side) anything like a responsible and progressive figure
that takes national security seriously enough to place military and
warfighting concenrs at the top of his or her agenda.
Another result is that our politics now have become an exercise in
make-believe, playacting, and buffoonish, over-the-top theatre of the sort you expect
from talk radio hosts. Howard Dean's Mad as Hell, and wants to make war on
Bush, not Saddam! Bush2000 says that war hero McCain is an unpatriotic
scoundrel! As are Murtha and Max Cleland!
Due to such playacting, we do not have anything like a mature, reasoned,
searching debate on major issues prior to the election. In such a climate, it's
more than a stretch for a candidate who tack hard to the extreme for 12-18
months and then sail back toward the center during the last 3 weeks of the
election to say he has a real mandate from the nation. Which nation? The nation
of zealots, or the swing voters and centrists? Is it the base or the swingers
who put him in office? No one knows because the process is schizoid. This is
IMHO the central cause of the moral and intellectual and systemic rot in our
politics today.
1.17.2006 10:48pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14649) )
holdfast (_mail_ (mailto:mike at unixg.ubc.ca) ):
LOL.
Talk about delusional. Implying your critics are traitors is restrained?!
Cites Please??
1.17.2006 10:55pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14688) )
Blue Jean (_mail_ (mailto:captainblink7 at yahoo.com) ):
Back to the subject at hand-
Yeah, Joe, I've gotten some of those too. My favorite way to deal with them
is to write back and say
"Dear Friend,
I don't wish to alarm you, but from the following email sent to me, I would
surmise that a crazy person has hacked into your account and is now sending
off these missives in your name. You might want to consider changing your
password or deleting this account altogether.
Sincerely,
Etc., etc.
But seriously, don't think of this kind of spam as an insult; think of it as
a badge of honor. I;ve been slimed by the Cons (for supporting Gore) and
flamed by the Naderites (for supporting Gore). I've been denounced both as a
closet-fascist and as a crypto-socialist (which is unfair, since I'm really
more of a Parlor Pinko. ;-) Think of it this way; you can claim your stripes as
a moderate oncel you've been spammed by both the Right and the Left.
1.18.2006 2:31pm
(_link_ (http://www.themoderatevoice.com/posts/1137429045.shtml#14705) )
jayster (_mail_ (mailto:jaystergot.net at sbcglobal.net) ) (_www_
(http://jayster/) ):
2 THINGS;
#1. DON'T DISCOUNT THE ABILITY OF THE DEMOS TO WIN ELECTIONS, THEY OWN THE
ELECTIONS OFFICES EVERYWHERE. IF YOU WORK FOR THE GOV AND ARE NOT A DEMO, YOU
ARE AN IDIOT. IF A REPUB IS ELECTED YOU WILL NOT GET THE FAT RAISE OR THE FAT
BENIES YOU WOULD GET UNDER A DEMO (SCREW THE TAX PAYERS). NOT ONLY THAT BUT
YOU WOULD PROBABLY HAVE TO DO 8 HOU